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Re: Preparation for Overseas Movement Markings

Sat Jun 13, 2009 22:16

Ben/Alain -

I found the question of POM markings raised on the G503 forum here and posted a link back to this article and your markings database page. Hopefully you can gather some more markings. Just thought you would like to know. :)
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Re: Preparation for Overseas Movement Markings

Mon Jun 15, 2009 23:25

Thanks Peter, I will be sure to keep checking the post to see whether nay of the guys over there have been able to provide additional bar codes or units.

Thanks again,
Ben
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Re: Preparation for Overseas Movement Markings

Sun Jun 21, 2009 16:36

Dear all,

I have now been able to add a further three POM Markings to our Database, and this time they are supplied with their specific unit information. The new records are as follows:

43521 - 1st Division, 32d Field Artillery, HQ Company
43200 - 1st Division, Headquarters and Headquarters Company
42895 - 3d Armored Division, 33d Armored Regiment, Headquarters

In addition, I was able to discover that the codes beginning with 43### were reserved exclusively for use by the 1st Infantry Division. It's probably safe to assume that the first two numerals were in fact unit specific, and reserved for Division sized units.

View list of recorded POM Markings

In case anyone else is able to add additional markings to the list, please feel free to contact me.

Thanks,
Ben
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Re: Preparation for Overseas Movement Markings

Mon Jul 06, 2009 17:31

Hello Ben,

thanks for collecting and creating a database for the POM Markings.
Have three items in my collection which might help, too:

1. Wooden box 28 3/4 x 11 1/2 x 11 1/2 inch, dated May 1943
Image

Image

Image

2. Duffle bag, dated 1943

Image

Image

3. Duffle bag, dated 1944

Image

Image

Greetings
Sylvia
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Re: Preparation for Overseas Movement Markings

Mon Jul 06, 2009 18:44

I am pretty sure the yellow and black symbol painted on the chest represents a unit of the 1st Infantry Division.
These insignia can be found painted on the sides and front bumpers of the Division's vehicles too.
This particular insignia could have indicated 2nd Battalion of the 26th Infantry Regiment.

As for the lower Duffel Bag, there was a Captain Charles Powell in the Regtl Service Company of the 116th Infantry Regiment of the 29th Infantry Division. Don't know his Serial Number though...

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Re: Preparation for Overseas Movement Markings

Mon Jul 06, 2009 18:56

johan willaert wrote:As for the lower Duffel Bag, there was a Captain Charles Powell in the Regtl Service Company of the 116th Infantry Regiment of the 29th Infantry Division. Don't know his Serial Number though...


Just checked, that was a Charles A Powell, so no match!
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Re: Preparation for Overseas Movement Markings

Tue Jul 07, 2009 00:09

Sylvia,

Many thanks for kindly registering with our Forum and sharing these great items from your collection. I have meanwhile added the code to our database, so hopefully we can soon add a Unit for that code.

With regard to the yellow and black circle marking, as Johan has already indicated, I believe these were assigned to the 1st Infantry Division and attached to bumpers and other items. I did read somewhere that these markings replaced the standard TAT markings (To Accompany Troops) for specific units but haven't been able to find any proof of this. I know that the 29th ID also had its own too (Johan will probably know better than I, being a 29th buff).

Thanks for sharing, and kind regards,
Ben :D
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Re: Preparation for Overseas Movement Markings

Tue Jul 07, 2009 19:10

Hello Johan,

thanks a lot for that info! :D
Do you have pics or a link to historic pictures showing this yellow and black symbol painted on vehicles? As I'm a Dodge enthusiast, picture of a Dodge would be more than great.


Hello Ben,

no problem, I'm very happy to help filling the database :D


Greetings
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Re: Preparation for Overseas Movement Markings

Tue Jul 07, 2009 19:59

Florence wrote:Do you have pics or a link to historic pictures showing this yellow and black symbol painted on vehicles? As I'm a Dodge enthusiast, picture of a Dodge would be more than great


The Divisional HQ had a star in a circle in black and yellow, painted on front bumpers and sides of vehicles

Image

The 1st Medical Bn had yellow/black squares

Image

Other pictures known show GMC trucks towing 105mm How Guns from the 32Field Artillery and GMC trucks from another unit.

The Inf Regts had a circle with up to 3 horizontal stripes for the different Regts (16-18-26), while the Artillery units had a square with horizontal lines. Above the lines you sometimes see numbers for the Battalions or other markings for units (A-B-C or AT etc...)
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Re: Preparation for Overseas Movement Markings

Tue Jul 07, 2009 21:35

Good Stuff Johan! I always wondered what the box meant on the door of that ambulance. Did you find this documented somewhere or is it just from observation?

Sylvia - welcome to the USMD crew. Now you'll get to find out all the stuff that Florence would carry and what it all means. :)
Peter

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Re: Preparation for Overseas Movement Markings

Wed Jul 08, 2009 13:00

sgtpeter wrote:Did you find this documented somewhere or is it just from observation?


To date the different tactical symbols of the 1st Inf Division for Normandy have not really been researched or published; at least not that I know of.
So what I know comes from observing original WW2 pictures showing the markings in use.
I believe these markings should have been used after erasing the letter coded unit markings, for tactical purposes, but for some reason, the Big Red One vehicles retained their original letter markings and had the tactical ones applied next to them. Of course this doesn't make sense in a tactical way, but allows for better identification of the different markings.
These are visible on several color images which we have all seen in various books and sites in recent years.
One can only wonder why the BRO vehicles were marked with huge stars and white bumpers, for the Normandy landings. It doesn't make sense from a camouflage point of view....
Next to these yellow/black tactical markings the BRO vehicles were also painted with the color coded 'invasion bars' accompanied by the 5-digit number code, as shown on the pictures above (example 43020 for HQ-1st Inf Division)
So 1st Division vehicles were actually identified three times on the front bumpers...... :!:

A similar system was used by the 29th Inf Div, and they did it following the rules as the larger unit codes (generally found on the left side of the bumpers as you look at them) were replaced by the Tactical Signs (except on Vixen Tor, the Jeep of the Division Commander, which carried both markings).
And luckily a list of the different signs for the 29ID has survived, so identifying vehicles from that division is not that difficult.


Here's an overview of the 29th Markings, from Jon Gawne's article in the French Militaria Magazine (all markings should be bordered in yellow too)

Image

Here's a Jeep from the 29th Division's 111th Field Artillery in Brittany

Image

A Jeep from the Divisional Reconnaissance Troop in France

Image

None of the 29ID vehicles seem to have the Color Bars...
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Re: Preparation for Overseas Movement Markings

Wed Jul 08, 2009 14:16

Johan,

Thank you for kindly posting up Jon's research. I knew I had seen this somewhere before, and as I remember there was a short discussion about these over on the USMF.

I have meanwhile contacted a friend who works at the US National Archives in order to try and obtain the Annex for the 1st Infantry Division, along with the numerous tables that contain the Unit Codes. I'll be sure to keep everyone informed of any data which might be received. I think we're certainly get a lot of data together about the numerous types of shipping markings etc.
Thanks to everyone that has contributed so far - hopefully we'll be able to add more data.

Thanks,
Ben :)

P.S. Since this has thread has turned into a great reference, I have moved this into the Reference Forum.
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Re: [REF] Preparation for Overseas Movement Markings

Tue Jul 28, 2009 22:15

Hello all,

I received the following item from the United States today. It's an M1935 Bedding Roll, but I purchase it mainly for the interesting variety of POM markings which can be seen on it. As you'll see from the photographs below, this bears both types of bard codes (those with and without a letter suffix). Also of interest is the fact that the Roll seems to have been reissued at some point. It was originally issued to a Capt. Walter P. ????? (ASN O-393916) and then later to a Matthew Wirtz (ASN: O-1287638).

bedroll_1.jpg


It looks as though there are some unit designation markings underneath Matthew Wirtz' ASN, but I am unable to make them out - is anyone else able to decipher the markings? They seem to be HQ?-22I-E?

bedroll_2.jpg


Also of interest, is the fact that the supposed earlier type of marking (with letter suffix) has been painted OVER the 5 digit version seemingly unique to Operation Overlord.

I'd certainly welcome everyone's comments on this one.
Thanks,
Ben ;)

bedroll_3.jpg
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Re: Preparation for Overseas Movement Markings

Wed Aug 19, 2009 16:11

johan willaert wrote:I am pretty sure the yellow and black symbol painted on the chest represents a unit of the 1st Infantry Division.
These insignia can be found painted on the sides and front bumpers of the Division's vehicles too.



Here's another example of a yellow/black Tactical Marking of a 1st Division unit (yellow circle lined in black, two black lines)

Image

This is the motorpool of the 3rd Battalion/18th Inf Regiment of the 1st Infantry Division in Germany, early 1945 (National Archives Photo)
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Re: [REF] Preparation for Overseas Movement Markings

Fri Aug 21, 2009 14:10

This thread caught my eye, as my father's mussette bag had these markings.

Family lore (which I know well not to trust) held that unit information had been painted over at some point for security reasons, though even as a kid I wondered why they would have used three stripes of paint to cover over something.

Anyhow, my father's unit was 6th Armored Division, 212th Armored Field Artillery Battalion, HQ Section. The stripes are very faded, but appear to be be:

blue
maroon
blue

I'm also curious about the dark marking underlying the colored stripes.

Bruce
musette_bag_markings.jpg
musette bag markings

blue
maroon
blue

From 6th Armored Division, 212th AFA Bn., HQ Section

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